Cynical
Sometimes that process can be easy, sometimes it's really tough. As a Christian, this decision making might seem to be a little more simple. After all, God loves us and he knows what is best for us so as long as we figure out his will then we'll be fine, right? And even if we get it wrong, we know that God is still there with us.
Yeah, it's not always as simple as it sounds. Discovering God's plan for our lives isn't always so cut and dried. God speaks in so many ways: to us directly in our minds, through the Bible, through our friends, through writing, through songs or art, through history, through nature, and a bunch of creative ways beyond those.
And God isn't a solo voice out there. We have our own thoughts, desires and emotions kicking in. Our friends have their own personal opinions. The world has its own voice and satan and the powers of darkness certainly want to lead us astray.
That's part of the reason that we need to practice how to hear God's voice. We need to learn how to recognize God's voice, like a lamb knows the voice of its shephard or a dog knows the voice of its owner (John 10:27). The more we do it, the easier it becomes to find God's voice as a whisper after the earthquake (1 Kings 19).
So all of that is to say this: I've become more cynical about this process. I believe everything that I wrote above but, more and more, I'm seeing that God leaves us to our own devices on these decisions. He will guide us a bit and give us advice but in the end the decision is completely up to us. We have free will, we must be the ones that determine our own lives.
In various ways recently, I've heard people declare or suggest what God is saying about certain situations. Investments, business decisions, romantic relationships, new Christian ministries, etc. We become convinced that God has told us to do something, or conversely that God has not told us to do something. And in so many of these cases recently, the results just ain't right.
If we think that God is telling us to make a major financial investment and then it falls through and we lose it all, did God really speak to us? If we decide to date somebody and we think that God has chosen that soul mate for us but then we break up with that person, did we make a mistake? Or take my situation with my new company, the one that I'm trying to start up. We have gotten God's confirmation in umpteen different ways but since I first heard about the idea in July 2006 and I started working full time for it in December 2006, we still haven't raised the necessary funding. At some point, I have to seriously consider my options if this doesn't work out.
Yadda yadda. I have asked numerous people this question recently since, you know, it has a direct impact on several key areas of my life. And as expected, I get a lot of different answers. The most common answer is the most comforting one. Sure, you heard from God. Maybe God just had other plans for you. You thought you were going from Point A to Point B but God was actually moving you to Point C. We don't know the mysteries of it all, nor do we know how many people we effected along the way. Just be thankful for it all.
Bah humbug, I say! If you think that there's a prophecy that says to do something and that exact thing doesn't work out, the most basic answer is that the prophecy was wrong. We didn't hear God correctly, period. Of course, that may be the most harsh answer so I understand that we do not think agree with this conclusion. So maybe someone else didn't follow through with something from God, maybe our plans were incomplete, maybe we didn't follow God's leading enough. If we go that route, though, how do we test prophecy and "words from God?" The must fundamental test of a prophecy is to see if it happens. If it doesn't, then it wasn't a prophecy. Right?
I don't know. It's a little much for me to claim that someone who honestly and desperately sought God's voice got it completely wrong. It's a bit much for me to discard all of the evidence and confirmation that I've had in my life regarding my new company and other major areas and admit that I got it all wrong. I haven't really come to any conclusions on this.
All I know is that I do have these major decisions in my life still. And some of these decisions needs to be made soon. Spiritual mumbo jumbo, good intentions and consoling thoughts do not help me make those decisions. As best as I can figure, God leaves us responsible for our choices and we have to use what we have to make the best choices, as Steve suggests in this post regarding Proverbs. If things don't work out, it's not because God misled us. It's our choice and it's our responsibility.
23 comments:
I'm in the same boat you are concerning some different areas of my life, so maybe I'm not the best person to respond, but I'm gonna give it a shot anyway...
There have been times recently in my life where I've thought I've heard from God regarding certain things, and there's even been some evidence/confirmation that, yes, this is what God wants for me. My biggest issue is with doubt and fear. What if I was wtong in thinking that was God? Where do I go from there?
Doubts and fears are natural I think. We're human. The test then becomes do we keep pressing on despite it.
As a friend, all I can say to you is trust what you believe God has said. I've felt from the beginning that this company will get off the ground and be a wonderful blessing to those who need it...God has His reasons for holding the funding back. Maybe it's because of a wrong decision made, but perhaps it's just God testing your faith. Personally, I have no idea which is corrrect, or if either one are, but it wouldn't be the first time that God has made His children wait a long time to receive an answer to their prayer. Look at Abraham and Sarah, all their lives they waited and prayed for a child, but it wasn't until they were both very old that God finally answered them. And when He finally did, Sarah reacted the way many of us do when we hear from God...She laughed and tried to tell God that it was impossible. But God proved to her that nothing is impossible for GOd. His ways are higher than her ways, and things happen in His time. I know, everybody says that right? But you were right when you talked about free will. We have a choice to stick with it, and believe what He told us, or to cut and run to what we think is a "safer" option. Let me make one thing clear...I DO NOT for a second think that by pursuing a Plan B temporarily qualifies as a cut and run, not as long as you don't give up on Plan A altogether.
All that said, you know you better than I do, and I certainly don't know what God has said to you...I'm just an outside observer offering an opinion.
I think you've really hit the nail on the head with this. Ockham's Razor: all things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one. Or in this case, the most accurate one.
I think that the whole issue of "I thought I was following God but it doesn't seem like it now" really boils down to one single issue. Whether we're right on course, or staggering along the road like a drunk, ultimately, it's easy for anyone to get off course.
If God tells us to "walk straight ahead", we could say he said that so that we'd see something up ahead, and make a right turn. Or we could say that he said it because he wants us to walk straight and never stop. But ultimately, God seems to be in the business of steering, not pushing. We might actively and happily pursue God's will, but human nature dictates that we'll invariably veer off course somewhere - either right at the start, or far down the road. Either way, we heard from God, and we heard right. We just made a choice somewhere along the line that affected whether we were still pursuing God's will.
After all, it was originally God's will that we live in complete harmony with him. But mankind made the choice to eat a fruit. Does that mean they didn't hear from God in the first place? Far from it. Reality is, they heard from God, they obeyed God (for a while) and then eventually they messed up and got off course. So God set up a new plan to put them back on course. Same with us. We hear from God, we act accordingly (or hope we are) and we might last a short time, or a long time. We might get far off course, or only slightly. But God's in the business of wanting to steer us back, as long as that's what we want him to do.
God spoke to Noah. If I remember correctly, there is no mention of God speaking to Noah during the 120 years he was building that ark. Does that mean he had heard God incorrectly?
Sherry
Sherry: If there had not been any rain, then would we say that Noah heard correctly? This would be the kind of situation that I'm asking about.
If Noah had stopping trusting what he heard God say, and if he had stop building the ark, we wouldn't be here.
Sherry
If you're going to hold something as true, and foster a certain fidelity towards it, than empirical circumstances are only a distraction.
Why do people insist on using God as some kind of personal financial and career advisor? Read Job again. God's just as likely to kill your entire family as he is to make you rich or comfortable or secure or happy.
I disagree with both of your paragraphs, Mike, but you make a good point in the second one.
Empirical circumstances...I don't know what you mean. One of the primary ways that I hear from God is from the basic everyday situations in life. You seem to suggest that I am fostering a belief outside of regular life, rather than as a result of it. Unless I misunderstand you.
Your point about Job is well taken. Even so, there are plenty of passages that talk about seeking God's will in our lives and the fact that he wants to bless us. I'll agree that this doesn't necessarily mean propserity gospel, though, all sunshine and butterflies.
Hmm, I seem to be debating this more than I would like. I thought I covered most of the explanations in my main blog post already. Let me pull my own reins in for a second.
People, including me, say that God told them something would happen and then it doesn't happen. Why? I'm becoming increasingly cynical about this, and I'm increasingly led to think that most of the time, we just didn't hear God in the first place in these situations. We just don't want to face that fact 'cause it's tough on the ol' pride.
Or maybe I wrote this just because I'm angry with God. That's a distinct possibility, too, and my emotions may be clouding my judgment. I hope not...
I just need to ask this one question Jamie...You make the suggestion that maybe we've not heard from God in the first place...What, then, is the point of having a relationship with Him if He's not speaking to us. Would you have a relationship with a person that never spoke to you?
I'm never one to tell someone how they feel, but perhaps you are angry with God right now, and that's okay...Just as long as you don't disregard the possibility that He does speaak to us altogether. Just because something is taking a LOT longer to come to fruition that you're comfortable with, does not mean it'll never happen. There are things in my life right now that are causing me to be confused and angry, and even afraid...but I HAVE TO believe God told me what He told me. If I don't have that, I have nothing left but my own devices and quite frankly...when I'm left with just those, I never fail to make a HUGE mess of things.
I'm not saying that everyone who says they heard from God about something actually has, but that's why taking the time to seek after Him is so important.
I may have completely missed your point, and if I have, feel free to disregard everything I've just said....It's late, and I need sleep, so I'm probably making less sense than usual...heh
I think Noah and the ark are a great example. I hope no one minds me contributing another $0.02 worth. In one way, it's a good example because it's a case of hearing from God, acting accordingly, and not seeing immediate results. Looking back on that situation, we don't question "what if there had been no rain" because we see it after the fact. We question "what if" while we're living in the 120 years between pounding the first nail and riding the waves.
It's also a good example, because I think, Jamie, that deep down the biggest concern is - just because one heard from God, does it mean that person still hears from God? While we're all living in that proverbial 120 years, we're going to question "what if". And there is that possibility that the worst case happens: Noah didn't really hear from God in the first place, and built a 50,000 pound statue. God gave Noah an instruction, then left it up to him to complete until the last step when God used a minor miracle to bring the animals together. It seems to me that God's pattern is one of "I'll set you on the right path, but it's up to you to figure out how to make it happen. I gave you a brain. Use it.".
So did Noah get a hint about what nail to put where? Did he get revelations about how many shovels to pack, or exactly how big each deck should be? Did he get a warning about how stinky the waste-hold was going to get, and he might want to pack some scented candles? Did God give him direction on how to pound every nail or cut every board? Whether he did or didn't, does it affect the original time he heard from God? Furthermore, Noah didn't appear to have any friends to help guide him through it. They all made fun of him. Was it because they were all ungodly people, or attacks from the devil? Maybe some were. But chances are most of them reacted to the fact that the whole idea seems stupid until you see the big picture. After all, before the ark, it had never rained on the planet before, and Noah wasn't near water. Sounds pretty dumb to me. Maybe even his own family questioned him for a while. The point is, God gave him the initial instruction, and then didn't appear to say a whole lot while Noah carried it out.
I think as humans, we tend to get a little excited when God does speak to us, and rightly so, but then our own pride and arrogance kicks in and we figure that because God spoke to us, he necessarily continues to speak to us. Just because we heard him once, or twice, or ten times, doesn't mean we hear him all the time. So when we hear something that sounds good, we often like to attribute it to God because we think "well, God speaks to us". We also tend to want to add God's "blessing" to our own ideas. The reality is, God spoke. Whether or not he continues to speak is another story. And if we think we're hearing him over and over, but we're actually not, then how easily could that be the very thing that steers us off course from what was originally planned?
Ashleigh, thanks for the responses. You seem to be thinking that I'm talking about anytime that God speaks. I'm not, though I may not have been perfectly clear on this. I know that God speaks all the time, and I act accordingly. God is a real person, and he has a real voice, and he does speak to us in many ways. In your life, I agree that you have accurately heard a lot of what God has been saying to you lately.
I'm only speaking about one extreme type of situation here. I am only asking about false prophecy. I have a very narrow focus for this blog post.
I am only wrestling with the issue of unfulfilled words from God. If we think that God clearly said that something would happen, and then it clearly doesn't, who was wrong? Us or God?
It's not an easy question, especially in big situations when a bad decision can cost us so much.
Well said, Steve.
It also makes me think of the idea that God has a mission, whether we're in it or not. He calls us to do it, but if we fail, he has another person lined up to accomplish it. I think in the case of prophecy, and false prophecy, it happens all the time. Obviously the only true tests are: 1) is the prophecy in line with God's will (or his values/laws) and 2) did it come true? A prophecy of "you will achieve such and such" is vague, and has no time limit. Knowing if it comes true can only be determined right up to the last minute of your life. But a prophecy of "you will do this at 10 tomorrow" is pretty finite. In a lot of cases, I witness vague prophecy - visions, dreams, missions - all of which may be prophetic in nature. But then there are little detailed prophecies that may be specific, and may be false. Ones that come true help the overall mission. Ones that don't hinder it. They even deeply impact the soul of the one prophesying. They impact the people around them regarding trust factors.
So really, is a prophecy of God? Well, is it pro-God, and did it come true? If not, then no.
I'll unpack that first paragraph a bit. Make it more clear.
Take the example of a doctor. She takes the hippocratic oath.
I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required...
In the midst of treating a patient, she runs up against budget problems. Or the patient is an illegal immigrant without insurance. There are many, many good reasons why treatment must cease. These are empirical circumstances.
In the end, the doctor must choose between fidelity to their oath and the budget. Fidelity to what they hold as true vs. betraying that fidelity in the name of empirical circumstances.
Is that more clear?
I've been thinking about this idea for a while now. Ultmately I think we get stuck in the details of God leading us. Take that job, go to that school, marry this person...We even have references in the Bible about God doing such things. But I wonder if those references are because He's God and He chooses to do those things. If I give you a gift today, does that make it is a principle that I will give everyone the same gift.
Being in love with someone never includes determining what they should be or do. If I forced you to become a programmer, would I have been a loving father? Is our heavenly father different in what He asks or directs us to do? Do we just want to get out of taking responsibility for making our decisions. I here that a lot these days. God told me so I do and I never evaluate my role in the process.
When Adam was in the garden he was free to do anything. The one thing he wasn't suppose to do, he did. I wonder if that is more the way God would want us to relate to him. Stay away from deadly fruit and then we choose those things that we would want to do.
I'm not saying that He doesn't want to be very intimate in our processing of decisions. I believe He does. I just don't think He wants to dictate the processing. I would see it more like great friends choosing together to do something of value rather than choosing to get drunk. Neither one is controlling the other, rather they are strengthening each other to do a better thing.
One last thought is that our historical filter, our personality filter and our strength filter all have a part in how we relate to both God and others. We can't ingnore these things with each other or in how we hear God.
It has taken me 30 years to come to a starting place of understanding the New Testament. My filters dictated my interpretative model. One thing I know for sure is that Jesus is my saviour and that He loves me. The details of how I live for Him were skewed by my inexperience, other people's filter being passed on to me and then on to you, so many filters affecting my choices, my thoughts, even my passions.
And even in the getting the details wrong, I deeply sense that God is wooing me towards Him to something deeper, something I was designed for. To love Him with all of my heart.
Don't be discouraged with the details, love Him with all of your heart.
jI often look at myself as the sum of all of my experiences. Alot of the experiences I've had were definitely decisions that I made knowing God was fully supporting all of the possibilities lying ahead. When things didn't seem right, or work out the way I had expected or wanted to, I still took that or those experience(s) as being necessary at the time for reasons bigger than I knew. So for example, blessings in disguise. It could be something I learned about myself, about another - I could think of a million things that God could want me to experience but that I wouldn't have necessarily chose for myself. I mean, why would I? Why would I choose any suffering as a learning experience? But as we all know, you can't know good unless you know bad, etc. etc.
Sometimes in order to grow or to lead us down the right path we have to walk through a dark forest. Okay now that just made me laugh, ha! No seriously, there is so much good that can be overshadowed by a let down. You have posted about may positive things and changes / experiences as of late, yet they have all come about due to a major decision that might not seem to be going as planned (as you know it).
Having said all that, I agree that there are definitely times when we haven't made the right choice but I also believe that there is a specific kind of 'knowing' that goes with that. Subconsciously, I think we all 'know' when our decisions were right, and went right. Right and went wrong but are still right. Wrong and just plain wrong, and - I've lost myself in nonsense see ya.
Thanks, Mike, that is more clear. I do think that circumstances might be an indication of God's will, though, even if they contradict verbal prophecy. Your point about sticking with "God's will" despite circumstances is well made, though. Especially for Christians in a country where that faith is illegal or something like that.
By the way, everyone, my dad posted something on his own blog in response:
http://davidagrant.blogspot.com/2007/03/magic-8-ball.html
Lori, that's insightful. You're right, we probably wouldn't choose for anything difficult to happen to us. Difficult circumstances might be there for a good reason, rather than being an indication of a wrong choice. I still prefer not to learn lessons the hard way, though. Heh.
My initial, knee-jerk, gut reaction is that David just nailed it there.
But that's just my first thoughts. Give me a day to percolate, and who knows, I might change it all up. But that sounded good. Really good.
Thanks, Leonard, for being so thorough and specifically addressing my big questions. Heck, I think your comment was longer than my blog post. I lived reading it, and it fits perfectly with some of the other excellent advice that I have received recently since I wrote this.
Dear Jamie,
Before I go on let me say that if I think God has said something to me and it does not happen and I did any "if . . . then" part that was mine to do then God did not speak. The remedy is as simple as admitting I got it wrong and doing whatever restitution I need to do. And learn . . .
So many just won't stand up to the reality that they didn't get it. They twist it into so many things that you are pointing out in your blog. No, it wasn't that God made a mistake. No, it wasn't that God has become the peekaboo man who tells you things to get you to trust him and runs out on you when you do. God did not say it if it didn't happen. Period.
I have heard God speak. Carie is alive today because I heard God speak specifically and directly by His Spirit. And every time it was Him, it was as He said. I have thought I heard God speak and thankfully, He has let me know through bitter and painful circumstances that it wasn't.
I would be so wrong to continue in my pride by not admitting that I was in error when it is so blatantly obvious that to do so would malign the character of God. Yet I hear almost daily of those who would rather make God out to be worse than the devil than to admit that they never heard. We need to be so quick to own up to our mis-guidances.
You are asking several questions which I think are a sign of God actually answering your prayers to speak to you.
I always ask people who are seeking to hear from God, "How do you know what you should be asking Him?" and "How do you expect Him to speak to you?"
Most people who are asking God things are not asking first what should they be asking and second how will He answer.
First of all let me ask which question that you have asked Him do you want Him to answer?
God is not like a Ouija board, or the Oracle of Delphi where you ask a question and you get the answer to the question . . . no, yes, maybe . . . In the Bible God shows us that He wants to be Lord over every aspect of our lives . . . not just the fortune teller that we come to with the pressing questions. I know you are on the road to Him being fully your Lord and that you don’t just want a Magic Eight Ball like your dad said on his blog.
So back to my question . . . Did you ask God to lead you or did you ask for information? I know you were asking for Him to lead you which is why I have good news . . .
What is the best way to learn to follow God? Experience. And you need not be cynical because God is answering you by letting you experience the realities of the world. Did he lead you into these circumstances . . . ? Yes and No. God’s will in a sin filled world is very different from God’s will in the garden or in heaven. Perhaps God wants you to learn how to spot an untrustworthy person or how to deal with disappointment. Did he make the people who you trusted do what they did? No. Can He redeem what they do? Yes! Did God make the girls you have loved reject you? No. Can he redeem what they did? Yes! Is your maturity important enough to God to not stop you when you make decisions that will have hurt in them but which will teach you lessons you could learn no other way? Yes! Can God be leading you in spite of the pain you bear from the reality that others can and do hurt you? Yes. But there is an even more important reason why God sometimes leads us into pain and disappointment . . . for others.
I was once mediating on the verse that says all things work out together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose.
I realized that the way we often read the verse is, “good for me.” I.e., it works out for good to the individual person who has the “all things” happen to them.
But it does not say that. It says it works out good to those (plural) who love God and are called according to his purpose. The good is to others as well as ourselves. This fits with the one whose life we must interpret all scripture through to come to the correct interpretation - Jesus.
Let me say it like this . . . Jesus followed His Father right to the cross. Was it God’s will? Yes and No. It was not God’s first desire when He gave humans the chance to choose. If they had chosen correctly, Jesus would have never been crucified. God’s first desire was that His Son never suffer the cost of our corporate sin. But we did sin and God had determined that from the beginning He would do whatever it would take to win the hearts of some of His creation back to Himself. Was the plan good for Jesus? Yes. He would win a bride but what a bride price he payed. Was it good for others? Yes, the whole world benefited from him walking through the ugliness he endured.
Now hear those who mocked him as he was dying . . . he saved others let him save himself . . . he trusted in God now let him deliver him . . .
Weren’t they saying the same cynical thoughts that overcome us when we feel that God has led us and it ended up in pain and defamation? But Jesus was dying for the very ones who were mocking him. His suffering was for them to perhaps let their hardened hearts be touched by the light and love of God. And at least two did that were there, the thief on the cross and the Centurion. But listen to the cost to win them . . . “My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?”
I felt the Lord showed me through these scriptures that the only ones He can lead into His perfect will are the ones who will walk the same path as Jesus did. Those who are willing to let others hurt them and respond properly are the ones who God can trust to lead in His perfect plan of redemption. This is because He is primarily interested in showing Himself to the world. The way He has most often done just that is by people being betrayed by even their closest friends and His forgiveness continues to be manifested in their lives . . . like Jesus.
What if God needs you to do what you have done for no other purpose than to give the other person a chance to see the true effect of his actions? What if he needs a sincere godly man who would follow Jesus even when the person in charge is devious . . . Remember Judas? Did Jesus not know what he was doing? Was it God’s will that Judas be a disciple? Was it not God’s will that he see all that Jesus did for three years? We know the answer to these questions is yes. Did God desire and purpose for Judas to betray Jesus? Yes and No. He wanted Judas to repent. Every day Jesus spoke to him he had another chance to turn from his sinful heart. Every miracle he saw was an opportunity for him to take the blinders off his eyes. The Bible says that He desires all to come to repentance. Yet he did not repent and day by day God was putting into place His plan of redemption that would include letting Judas betray Jesus. Did God take Jesus away from the possibility of pain and suffering at the hands of evil men and women? No . . . He could have but his larger purpose was to use even the sin of Jesus’s closest compatriots to demonstrate that God can redeem anything. In fact God led him straight into the hands that would put nails in his.
If Jesus had said that God told him that he would not suffer and he did we would have known that Jesus was a false prophet. If he had said that God had told him he would suffer and he did not the same would be true.
Did God tell you that everything would be exactly as it happened to you? If you thought he did and it did not happen then you can safely say, “I missed it” But just because things went wrong in the plan as you thought it when God never told you that they were going to go right does not mean you were not led. Jesus’s life clearly shows us that.
Now on to some specifics about guidance.
Some questions will never get any answer but we can still ask and believe that we got the answer.
Let me say it like this . . . if God has already answered the question, He has a habit of expecting us to not ask again. This is the story of Balaam . . . It had tragic results because first God said no. Then God said yes when he asked a second time. The donkey got involved and even then Balaam didn't get it and asked the third time and God said yes again . . . Why? Because God will let us go if we don't listen the first time to let us learn why we should have listened the first time . . .
So the first question to ask is not about the specifics but . . . has God already answered this in the Bible, History or Creation.
One need not ask, “Should I jump off the pinnacle of the temple?” It is clear that God would not answer the question because He already has. I know that is a bit of overkill on the example but seriously if God has already said it, it is "Our Part" to find out if he did and what He said.
The second thing is about the revelations of present day issues. Again we look and can see that God clearly does give revelation as to what his will is in many situations. He tells David how to fight battles. He tells Moses how to build tabernacles. You know what I mean . . . But what are the quality of those situations? What are the KINDS of situations He lets people know about. I would venture to say almost everyone of them have something larger than the individual at stake. They are usually around three issues which you have heard me share before . . . protection, provision and presence.
David was told to protect, Peter was told to provide, Paul was told to bring the news of God's Emmanuel to Europe. Most involved what was to be done for God and others. We rarely find God giving answers to people with selfish motives. There are a few in the Bible but I don’t think any of us would want Him to speak to us like He did to them . . . Saul got an answer from God at the medium at Endor’s house. God wrote a message on a wall to the Son of Nebuchadnezzar. So he does speak even to selfish people but not for good . . .
The other quality I see in supernatural revelation is that in every case that I can see God had to share it because there was no other way to know. They needed a supernatural word because no other way was possible to arrive at God's destiny without Him speaking to them.
The last point is the one where I think most people make their mistakes . . .
Now I know that you do not ask God what clothes you should wear when you get up in the morning. Why not? I think it is probably that you believe that God lets you make those kinds of choices. If you are maturing as a Christian, you might believe that God is actually in your desires. In fact if you are in full manhood, you will know that God is most likely already speaking to you by the very thought that you want to wear a specific thing. Sometimes God is kind to us (and everyone else who might see us that day) and sends us someone like my wife to deliver His word to us . . . sweety that really doesn’t work . . . try this!
The point is that you don’t expect to have every decision in your life to require a supernatural answer.
If I want food, I don’t pray that God will send it. I will trust God in the natural order of creation to have supplied it and I go to the store and get it. I could pray that God would answer my cry for food until I starved to death and He would not answer me . . . unless, and here’s the point most people miss . . . unless there was no food to be had. Then God would answer. But if He answered that time but I did not plant crops or look diligently to find a source (if there was one to be found) to make sure that I had received His provision through his natural order I would not hear from Him the next time I asked. And further if I did get food and others were starving and I did not share it, God would not continue to give it. I would not hear again.
Joseph was given the wisdom of the future not to start a psychic business but to feed whole nations, including his own who would have starved if God had not shown him. God would not have needed to speak to him if it were not so.
James 4:2 . . . You do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures.
So what kind of decisions require a supernatural decision? I personally think very few. In fact I believe almost everything is already in the Bible, in creation, in history, in our relationships, in us and in our circumstances. The only things that God will answer supernaturally are the things that are not already in these.
I once had a friend that recognized that God often spoke things that were supernatural in nature to me. She became quite despondent about it and felt that God did not really love her because she did not have the same. One day I went to the Lord and asked Him why He did not speak to everyone the same? He took me to the scripture where the rich man was in hell and the poor man who was previously suffering at the rich man’s gate without any compassion given to him. The rich man was begging Abraham to send back Lazarus to tell his brothers the reality that faced them. Abraham said,
Luke 16:29 "But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' 30 "But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' 31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.' "
I realized that the foundation of hearing God supernaturally is to believe what God has already spoken in the Bible. I felt He said, “Why should I speak to someone when they do not listen to what I have already said?”
You specifically mentioned who you should date? Who should be your spouse?
How I would love to remove people from the trap of the “God told me to/not to marry you” way of thinking.
God speaks, in fact sometimes yells, in our hearts without ever breaking the silence of heaven. I have seen the “God told me to/not to marry” you so many times. I think I can only say there is one time I believe it was real. That time if God had not spoken it to the couple they would not have even met. She was travelling with Corrie Ten Boom and only was at ORU for a few days. He was the chaplain. She felt God say to her that the next person she saw walking through the door of the room she was in would be her husband. Bob Stamps walked through the door and they both fell head over heels in love with each other. They are still as much in love as then. So yes I do believe that God can tell people who they are to marry. But again I believe it is only in very rare cases in situations that require a supernatural intervention.
Most “God told me talk” in dating situations is a mask for insecurity. I might add that a lot of the “I kissed dating goodbye” principles are the same. Finding a spouse is an intensely vulnerable thing. God made it so. Do I say that you should ask God to direct you? Absolutely! But like I started this reply with, we need to ask God what the question should be, and how should we expect an answer.
Consider this idea by thinking that we might need to move outside our comfort zones and norms to find God’s perfect match. Did God speak to Ruth to go to where a drunk man was sleeping while no one was around, crawl under his blanket and let him know that she wanted him and his hand in marriage? History and the Bible would tell us that in fact she was right on course. Did God verbally speak to her? No. Did her society tell her how to get a mate? No far from it . . . they would have seen her as an immoral woman, stopped her and possibly stoned her for doing so. Did she come up with it herself? No.
Now remember she was a grown woman. She could think for herself. But yet she so honoured and loved her mother-in-law that she was totally committed to do whatever it took for her to be cared for that she was willing to do whatever seemed like it might work. Seems there is a theme here. Boaz said it . . . “you didn’t go after younger men . . . ” And she wasn’t a gold digger either. She wanted to find a place of provision for her mother-in-law and a husband to raise up children securely. In the process she became the great-grandmother of the most famous King that ever lived and the forebear of Emmanuel. Did she know all that at the time? No. All she knew was that she loved her mother-in-law and was doing what she thought best for her. And she trusted in God. God spoke. In fact, He spoke perhaps more loudly than a shout from heaven would have been.
I have seen such devastation in the “God told me to marry . . . ” that I want to say to everyone, “don’t go there.” More than a hundred women said that God told them to marry a rich doctor in one fellowship I attended. One even had her wedding dress purchased. In the realm of romance it is best just to be honest and face the violent internal storms of vulnerability when you offer yourself to one you are attracted to. To spiritualise the process almost always guarantees defilement.
As long as they are within the Biblical boundaries, God speaks through the desires He gave us. We don’t need voices from heaven. And if we demand then we may be deeply deceived.
Once I had a friend who came to me with a deep fear. He said the girl he was dating had told him that they had to date because God told her they were to be married. He did start to date her but was not feeling like he was happy that God was wanting him to marry her. I told him to break up with her immediately. He was stunned. He said that he thought that I would tell him to obey God and help him get over his bad attitude. I told him I was telling him to obey God. I said that God was telling him to break up with the girl. He then asked if that was because I had a word from God on it and that he needed to obey me as his authority? I said absolutely not. I said he himself had the word from God. He was totally bewildered by that time. I said that the very fact that he was not happy with the idea that God had told them to date and get married was God speaking.
He asked me how I could be so sure that it was not his unwillingness to do what God wanted? I said that I could be so sure because I know the character of God. I told him when Adam woke up and saw this crowning glory of God’s creation he later named Eve, no one had to tell him who she was or what to do with her. He had seen all the animals and named them but every one only underlined his ache . . . When she arrived he did not ask permission or anything else from God. He knew what God had done and what God was saying. It was written in the very fabric of his spirit, soul and body.
I told my friend, “Get away from her as fast as you can and do not have any contact with her lest you destroy her and you both. He again said, “but what if God really does want us to get married?” I said, “If God wants you to marry her after a year apart you will not be saying, God, do I have to marry her, you will be saying, “God I am begging you to let me marry her.”
To his credit he listened to me. Almost one year later he came to me and said, I am begging God to let me marry her . . . I said, now you can know that God has spoken.
They are very happily married today and are serving together in a sweet relationship where both know God brought them together. But if he had married her under the deception that God was forcing him to they would not have lasted the year that they were apart. God may have spoken to her. I doubt it. But He may have. But even if God did, she should have never told him. God wants people married because they love each other.
Now to the “I kissed dating goodbye” stuff. To go to a girl and say to her that you want to court her with the intent to marry her is no different than the “God told me to marry you” stuff. It bypasses the fundamental issues of human relationships. It brings pressure to consider a sexual relationship (i.e., marriage) before there is even a phileo (friendship) relationship.
In some ways I think it is a response to the sexualization of all cross gender relationships. In our sex laden society we think that even being in the presence of an attractive person of the opposite sex is dangerous. What would a typical Christian in this society think of a woman coming to the youth pastor at a youth event and kissing his feet? We can kind of twist our thinking around it with Jesus but the world will tell you it is like the Da Vinci Code says, it was all about sex. But I know and the biblical authors know it wasn’t.
Further, Jesus wasn’t homosexual because he washed men’s feet. But many who have had their minds stained with the sexualizing of all relationships would say he was. We seem to not know how to get away from sex now that the flood gates have been opened.
But no real friendship can grow to romance if we are so caught in either feeling fear to have any sexual desires or wrongly seeking fulfilment of those we do have. And demanding that a commitment be made to have a romantic relationship ending in marriage before a friendship is even established means we never have a chance to know the other person before we are committed.
When I was a youth people used to go steady . . . The whole concept was a pre engagement before engagement. Biblically, no one should be exclusively committed to another person for the purpose of marriage unless they are engaged. So spending time with a person of the opposite sex should never be conditional on them being ready to move with you to marriage. How will anyone get to know each other and even find out if they could potentially want to move to a more committed place? All that we have to go on under the “kissing dating goodbye” scenario is casual acquaintance . . . and can I say it without offending anyone . . . attraction. Those are not good things to have as the only determination that we should marry someone. But they are good things to start with when there is not the demand to commit to marriage before we have true friendship.
I once knew of a youth group where the leader had violated all the sexual boundaries before he was a Christian. He became convicted of this and was able to get free. However he saw behind every normal look of attraction between the youth he led a deviancy that reflected his past. He set strong boundaries that I am sure he thought were biblical. Not even sitting together was allowed. Girls were encouraged to tell the leader if any boy was approaching them to talk alone with them. The leader would go after him with a vengeance. They were all about “kissing dating goodbye . . . ” No one was allowed to spend time together unless they had set in place the courting plan . . .
The thing the leader missed was that all the while he was determining that the group would not be involved in any way that might lead to attraction they were learning that they should not choose mates from the Christian community they were part of.
Finally I went to the leader and said to him . . . the young people are going out with everyone but who they should be going out with. In order to stay committed to the group they can’t even have a talk with someone they might like much less get to know them without a commitment of engagement. We really do want them to marry each other don’t we? But now they go out with people outside of the group, many of whom are not even Christians. And they are afraid to like anyone in the group . . . the very ones we hope they might marry.
God does not require that we be on a path to marriage before we even have a chance to know who we are on that road with. But driven by insecurity and fear we place these enormous road blocks to the way God actually does speak. If it is about not being able to control our passions then we need to not date or court anyone . . . We need to get free so that we can choose our partner as God wants us to. But those very passions when controlled and given to God are a huge part of how He will speak. I do not want my sons and daughters to go to a youth group that is nothing more than the warm up to the orgy. But I also want them to go to a place where the normal purpose of attraction is honoured.
When a young man or woman is attracted to another, God is speaking. Is God saying he or she is the one? Yes and no . . . Any attraction we find to someone who is within the biblical norms . . . opposite sex, a believer and committed to no sex outside of marriage . . . being the main ones . . . tells us something about the partner we will one day have from God if it is not him or her. Our attractions also tell us about ourselves. Notice I did not say that they are God’s perfect plan.
I was attracted to many girls before I loved Carie. As I look back now, I see that all of them were a reflection of her in some way. But when she walked into my life I didn’t even know it. I had no epiphanies. No voices from heaven. I didn’t tell her I wanted to court her . . . She did not ask God if she was the one for me. We just spent a summer getting to know each other as friends. Nothing could have indicated that she would be my life partner except . . . when she got on the bus to go home from Israel I sat on the bench and felt like all the fun of my life had just got on the bus and drove away. My best friend had left.
Was God speaking? Absolutely. Was He speaking in all those other girls I found attractive and dated. Absolutely. I find now that I knew Carie before we ever met . . . I am not being mystical. I only see that I knew her like an outline . . . I knew her in her absence. The place in my heart that she now perfectly fills was unfilled before. And as I dated girls I found attractive and wanted to get to know, I could see something of her there. But they did not fit the whole picture. Did I ask God to lead me to her? Of course. Do I think He did? Yes, without doubt. But I never said or felt that I needed any more than my heart and our authorities to know it was God’s will.
What if she had rejected me? I would have known that there was another that would be the one . . . or perhaps that God let me desire the ideal to only find it in Him. But what I did know was that He would guide me though the natural means of two hearts doing what men and women have always done . . . loving each other.
people use god for their own personal goals. if things turn out well god told them. fact is many people say god spoke to them or claim to speek to god, why then does god always get it wrong or say so very little.
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