Religion Ain't What It Used To Be (Part III)
(See Part I for the introduction and then Part II.)
Evolution
Yeah, I was persuaded some time ago that evolution actually works, as I wrote here. Considering the amount of time I devoted to research and debates on this topic, this was a big change for me. I was finally convinced by an author that explained the science behind it while still being open to Christian spirituality. I like to think that I'm willing to honestly consider opposing opinions regardless of the source or cimcumstances, but this author really communicated to me through simple respect.
I still think that God actually created everything, so I don't buy into the Big Bang theory directly. However, I may be willing to accept that the earth wasn't created conveniantly six thousand years ago, as calculated from Biblical geneaologies. Which leads me to my next point...
Accuracy of the Bible
And here's where I go right off the rails! I've heard so many arguments that the Bible contradicts itself, and so many arguments about the Bible being historically or scientifically inaccurate. I've heard 'em, analyzed 'em and argued against 'em. Naturally, I said, the Bible is perfect in every way.
And yet, here I am. I'll state this clearly: I no longer believe that the modern NIV version of the Bible is the infallible, perfectly accurate Word of God.
I think the Bible is incredibly reliable in umpteen different ways. I think it's the most well-kept ancient document of any kind. I think that it is a very clear picture of the reality and truth of the Christian God, and a great picture of Jesus' time on earth.
I also acknowledge that the people that wrote it were human and may have messed up some details. There may have been some copy problems along the way, or problems with word-of-mouth history before things were written down, or simple problems with the memory of the people testifying. Then there's the history of how the books of the KJV translation were selected, versus the different book selections from Catholic or Orthodox denomiations - so is the KJV selection perfect?
To go a step beyond that, there may be significant problems with all of the English translations, period. Besides normal difficulties with basic English interpretation, some of our English versions may in fact be translations-from-translations. Apparently, recent research by Nehemia Gordon shows that the book of Matthew may have been written in Hebrew originally, but our English version is based on various Greek versions. This scholar has this two-hour video that goes over the main arguments for this idea. Some of the common Bible verses that we have memorized may in fact say the opposite in the original Hebrew - and this video absolutely blew my mind with that revelation.
I love the Bible but its hardly written in stone, so to speak. Yep, I'm a crazy now...
Conclusion
So I'm a Christian but that ain't what it used to be. I still visit church once in a while but I'm not nearly as involved as I used to be. I still think that local churches provide various advantages that can't be found anywhere else, but I wonder if those advantages are worth the disadvantages. And since I am fully against the idea of tithing now, that pretty much leaves me at odds with any number of Christian denominations.
I did find that I had to back away from church in order to see it in a different light. I couldn't really understand how people could feel so rejected by church until I was on the outside looking in. And now that I'm on the outside, I have discovered that I'm part of a very disorganized and very large group of people that have similarly walked away from church. I don't know what will become of this happy unchurched population of Christians but it seems like a scary and freeing experience so far.
It's taken me a few years to make this transition and I assume I'm not done yet. We'll see where we go from here...
29 comments:
Nicely written Jamie. I'm glad you were able to realize that there are some pros in having a local church, "I still think that local churches provide various advantages that can't be found anywhere else...".
Now in your conclusion you write about not tithing. However I'm sure you don't think we should all keep every penny we make if it's more then enough to keep us cozy at night. Donating to charities is good if you could afford it. Or simply giving to the ones you love.
Looks like you've got yourself another ticket to the drive-in... maybe even 2.
Hey, how about answering my questions from your evolution post? What do you think of the created-with-age vs. created-with-experience distinction? What do you do with astronomy et al if we have to throw out [i]all[/i] of our observations in these areas?
Tack on one more - if you're willing to question the Bible, why on Earth won't you question Genesis in favor of things you can actually [i]see[/i] and [i]touch?[/i]?
My suggestion: get a reading list from Dan - not about creation or evolution or anything like that, but about the church broadly.
Mike
Oops, wrong tags.
Mike
well written, much better than second. thought you were gonna cop out.
charles
Scratch the reading list suggestion.
Mike
@Cam Yeppers, I completely agree that we shouldn't hoard our money for ourselves. I'm just against any kind of requirement for giving... (Drive-in - Yay!)
@Charles Wowzers, I thought the second post was more controversial than the first but you liked the writing in the second one more, eh?
@Mike Wait, when did you write that first comment? Before you finished reading this post? Are you satisifed that I'm on board with "the Bible ain't all right" and now I don't have to read Dan's ponderous reading list? ;)
Re: Created with Experience vs. Age
Um, still thinking about that one. 'Tis a good argument...
No, I had finished the entire post. I just thought it was a slightly pushy thing to say, and there's no way to edit or delete anonymous posts.
Mike
On what basis do you form your beliefs if you don't believe the Bible?
Or, perhaps more generally, what DO you believe?
I still use the Bible as my standard and inspiration, as the primary revelation of God to us.
Besides the changes that I have outlined here, I pretty much believe everything that I used to believe. I'm still a baptized-in-the-Spirit, born-again believer.
In my head, I still see myself as the mainstream Christian that I have always been. Sadly, I Have to admit that my ideas on tithing/churches/Biblical accuracy leaves me on the fringe. Yes, I've become one of "them." ;)
"I still use the Bible as my standard and inspiration, as the primary revelation of God to us."
But only certain parts? How do you select those parts?
You also seem to be really enjoying being "on the fringe" or whatever. Why?
Enjoying it? Well, freedom does feel good but nah, this process been kinda stressful more than anything. Breaking with decades of beliefs and habit is a hard thing to do.
Beyond that, I really like to see the humour in things, and self-deprecation is funny. ;)
To seriously respond: One example is that some parts of Matthew seem to come from an incorrect translation. Wowzers. Check out the related video I mentioned for more details on that...
So I don't buy the parts that have direct evidence to refute them. I'm not sure how I would pick and choose otherwise. Something like that.
Let's say I didn't have enough time to watch the 2 hour video...what's the Coles notes version say? It's not really discussed in the post.
aka Joel (for some reason, Google account not working)
Joel! I had assumed all those anon posts were Titus. Either that or Project Chanology.
Mike
Mike, not sure which anon posts you were talking about. I just didn't have time to watch the video (or, to be fair, want to spend 2 hours watching the video). I preferred to spend 2 hours watching soccer...haha.
It's been a while, hope all is well.
Joel
I'm I allowed to hijack this post and just say:
Mike! How are you doing man? Its been way too long! There have been some many topics/ideas that I would have appreciated a good debate from you on!
Jamie; I don't really know where to start on this discussion. I think the whole conversation would be one much better suited to in person then the web.
Mike, Joel, Jamie and Charles; when are we going to all get together and discuss live and this in topic in particular?
Joel, I'm referring to the unsigned anonymous posts that have appeared in this thread and the previous two.
Titus: come to Korea then! We'll down some makgeolli and hash the world out.
Mike
@Mike - gotcha. Not me.
@Jamie - Coles notes? Please?
All, ye ol' Topic Crunchers, united once again upon this very field of honoured combat...
I still have the old Topic Crunchers link on my blog links here, eh.
@Joel Yeppers, I intend to summarize the video. Stay tuned for another blog post about that some time. The video is a 2-hour talk that the Jewish scholar gave to a group of Christians, basically to promote his book on the same topic.
Short version: The Book of Matthew as we know it is a translation from a Greek version. Apparently, this Greek version is a slightly mangled translation of the original Hebrew version, which has been lost along the way. This scholar supposedly found a copy of the original Hebrew version stashed in Israeli archives somewhere.
It makes sense because the Book of Matthew was specifically written for a Hebrew audience - hence the geneology at the beginning and all that. Overall, the Hebrew version only changes a couple of words and sentences so it's still fairly close, but one or two significant things are different.
If this is true, though, it just shows that we can't take everything in our modern Bibles as word-for-word from God's mouth. It takes a little more parsing than that to account for the human element...
I never thought you would back away from your strictly held beliefs Mr. Grant but am happy to see you use god given abilities to question our stay on this earth. There is no way that any god would stifle a man's ability to wonder and dream while moving around the sun that moves around the outer edge of a galaxy that moves as part of a larger 11 galaxy minor cluster that's part of a super cluster that's part of a massive cluster opposite a massive, massive cluster in awesome opposition.
It is important to remember those books are simply lessons for someone to take inspiration from and not literal interpretations of anything, the proof is to look no further then Aboriginals and this is extremely important. The Hebrew bible, the extant and apocryphal scriptures of Yoshua ben Yosef (Son of Joseph, i.e. Jesus in English,) and the Arabian verses do not mention us. They do not know anything about us, or our continent. A book that knows everything does not mention that one day will be found a huge continent containing a tribe of people that extend all the way from the North Pole to 300 km from the South Pole? I have always found it funny when Aboriginals turn Christian as they are buying into a faith that does not want them and leaving a faith that states there are four types of coloured men; our belief system is the only one on the planet that knew about others on the planet. Such savagery and Satanism!
I used to argue with you as I studied theology back in grade nine and ten heavily then and still do and at this point being polymathic on the subject am able to really see the historical developments of what religion borrowed from where and when and how; the early Hebrew, Egyptian, Persian and smaller lesser known religions all have the same base. Even the Greeks used a thunder god on a mountain who smote the sinful. The literal interpretation and illogicism of religious books concerning other Gods and religions and their creators was in my opinion never important and I'm not sure why it is or ever was. Or maybe I do know.
Religion and politics. The power of a man to use religion to control people to do his bidding can be seen currently in the Israeli-Palestinian struggle, in many of the Moslem countries and especially in their converts who purposely move to European countries to be obstinate, not take part in political discourse until such numbers are built up they can force their views, values, laws and beliefs systems on a slowly decreasing minority due to the democratic need to obtain their votes. This is the new Moslem sword and we should all be wanton to not let this fact escape us in planning for the future even in North America.
In the U.S. we saw George Bush get voted in twice because he said God delivered a message to him to proselytize the world and bring freedom to it and Stephen Harper in Canada has a huge left wing presence who profess love for his current stance on no abortion even in time of need. Death and babies born to rape, incest and violent war are preferable to him as is the Christian way.
If you ever want to have a serious discussion with a well versed person I am more then willing to guide you to a ever wondrous fascination with the history of religion that I find so endearing and fascinating but I will say it is not as simple as Mark. Matthew. Luke and John.
Sincerely,
Tony.
I don't have our exchange concerning that video on hand anymore, but I did watch more than half of it, and I remember being pretty suspicious. Something about the 14 century rabbi? Your video claims this rabbi [i]found[/i] that Hebrew copy of Matthew, while the internet told me that scholarly consensus says that the rabbi did the translation [i]himself.[/i]
Mike
argh
@Mike Yes, I recall you having problems with that Hebrew Matthew thing but I don't have a copy of our conversation, either. I took a refresher on the arguments against Nehemia Gordon's claims, and there are plenty of 'em. Not the explanation you suggested here, but other ones. Sooo...yeah, I guess I'll concede that bit of evidence. ;)
Wait, really?
You're going to let Mike talk you out of that that easily?
Heh. No, more like the high-density arguments I've read recently, plus that scholar's somewhat tarnished reputation. Mike just got me to check out some more things...
Yes, who is yelling "argh"? Anonymous posts can be so confusing. ;)
That was me. I keep failing at HTML.
Mike
In that case, I suppose I'm stuck waiting for the next one then. Hurry up and post it. It's difficult only hearing part of an argument. :)
Well, I didn't write this post in order to convince anyone else. I wrote it as a way to express how I have changed. It's more of a "personal journey" kind of thing.
If people decide that they want to discuss these things in more detail, I'm happy to do it. If people want to research these ideas more on their own, then more power to 'em. But really, I'm quite happy if I convince no one about anything here. ;)
My next post is going to focus on the reasons that tithing is not Biblical. It may not be the greatest essay in the world but hopefully I can express the various reasons for my new stance on that...
Dude, I can't believe I'm coming to this discussion so late. All I want to say at this point is that I'm so very proud of you for being willing to question even your deepest beliefs. It is the certainties in our lives that threaten to hold us back, damage our relationships, and become bases of power over others. I myself have been going through a process of starting to say 'this is what I hold to today, but am open to learning something else tomorrow'.
Thanks, Abe! My dad wrote a line once that has stuck with me, not sure if it's quote from someone else: "Certainty is the enemy of relationships." It's true, yet I had no idea how true...
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